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Post by mtncat1 on Sept 18, 2020 21:33:08 GMT -5
FLACATAMOUNT,
Your take is a very draconian view on how UNC institutions grow and have grown over the past 30 years. For instance, ECU grew enrollment exponentially since the late 70's and it sure as heck was NOT by raising admission standards. I applied to many UNC schools during the early 90's and at the critical juncture when ECU was trying to grow enrollment. ECU was literally the FIRST acceptance letter I received in the mail. At that time, all you needed was a "C" average in high school and maybe a 730 on the SAT, and you are accepted at ECU. ECU obtained a medical school, vast enrollment growth, and made strides in athletic facility improvements and conference affiliations during the era from 1982 through present day whilst accepting pretty much anyone and everyone who applied. These achievements were not accomplished via raising academic enrollment standards alone, or even these standards at all. Each institution must find a path that is unique to the geographic, market placement, historical economic impact, and leadership vision they have. You can't "cookie cutter" a solution for all UNC schools or all universities and colleges in NC or any other State and their respective higher education institutions such as you've laid out. WCU must find their own path such as how ECU and ASU, and every other school has and is trying to do. I'm not going to pretend to give you or anyone else the solution or solutions, or "magic bullet" theory to how WCU can, should, or attempt to "grow" (whatever that definition is in our collective minds). I'm just pointing out there is a real fallacy to your draconian view on enrollment growth.
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Post by FLCATAMOUNT on Sept 19, 2020 7:26:28 GMT -5
FLACATAMOUNT,
Your take is a very draconian view on how UNC institutions grow and have grown over the past 30 years. For instance, ECU grew enrollment exponentially since the late 70's and it sure as heck was NOT by raising admission standards. I applied to many UNC schools during the early 90's and at the critical juncture when ECU was trying to grow enrollment. ECU was literally the FIRST acceptance letter I received in the mail. At that time, all you needed was a "C" average in high school and maybe a 730 on the SAT, and you are accepted at ECU. ECU obtained a medical school, vast enrollment growth, and made strides in athletic facility improvements and conference affiliations during the era from 1982 through present day whilst accepting pretty much anyone and everyone who applied. These achievements were not accomplished via raising academic enrollment standards alone, or even these standards at all. Each institution must find a path that is unique to the geographic, market placement, historical economic impact, and leadership vision they have. You can't "cookie cutter" a solution for all UNC schools or all universities and colleges in NC or any other State and their respective higher education institutions such as you've laid out. WCU must find their own path such as how ECU and ASU, and every other school has and is trying to do. I'm not going to pretend to give you or anyone else the solution or solutions, or "magic bullet" theory to how WCU can, should, or attempt to "grow" (whatever that definition is in our collective minds). I'm just pointing out there is a real fallacy to your draconian view on enrollment growth.
I appreciate your view but we tried it your way up until the mid 90s and we ended up with a university with a bad reputation academically where we accepted 85 to 90 percent of everyone that applied. The reason we have grown to over 12000 students over the past 20 years is by raising standards. If we still had the same reputation now, we would probably still be getting the same number of application and be marred where we were. I think we have grown fast enough and steady growth is much better than rapid growth for the sake of growth. If we had 20k students, would that mean we would be a better university. I think quality of education is key and I don’t think we should sacrifice one iota of quality so that we can grow faster just so we can be bigger. Some years we have grown by over 5 percent and others by less but I think the steady growth we have had with a steady rise in quality is the best way. This also makes our degrees worth more. Western has found what works for Western and that is exactly what we are doing and we are growing. I think folks have forgotten where we were 20 or 25 years ago and there are still a lot of folks out there that do not know how good academically that Western is now and still have the old view of Western. We need to stay the course and slowly improve standards and growth will continue to happen as it has. As far as ECU goes, the legislature is the main reason that ECU grew and not quality. The legislature gave ECU many new majors and tons of money because the eastern part of NC has a lot more political clout than the Western part. We will never ever get the massive political support that ECU has enjoyed. |
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Post by WesternFan on Sept 19, 2020 9:26:45 GMT -5
FLACATAMOUNT,
Your take is a very draconian view on how UNC institutions grow and have grown over the past 30 years. For instance, ECU grew enrollment exponentially since the late 70's and it sure as heck was NOT by raising admission standards. I applied to many UNC schools during the early 90's and at the critical juncture when ECU was trying to grow enrollment. ECU was literally the FIRST acceptance letter I received in the mail. At that time, all you needed was a "C" average in high school and maybe a 730 on the SAT, and you are accepted at ECU. ECU obtained a medical school, vast enrollment growth, and made strides in athletic facility improvements and conference affiliations during the era from 1982 through present day whilst accepting pretty much anyone and everyone who applied. These achievements were not accomplished via raising academic enrollment standards alone, or even these standards at all. Each institution must find a path that is unique to the geographic, market placement, historical economic impact, and leadership vision they have. You can't "cookie cutter" a solution for all UNC schools or all universities and colleges in NC or any other State and their respective higher education institutions such as you've laid out. WCU must find their own path such as how ECU and ASU, and every other school has and is trying to do. I'm not going to pretend to give you or anyone else the solution or solutions, or "magic bullet" theory to how WCU can, should, or attempt to "grow" (whatever that definition is in our collective minds). I'm just pointing out there is a real fallacy to your draconian view on enrollment growth.
I appreciate your view but we tried it your way up until the mid 90s and we ended up with a university with a bad reputation academically where we accepted 85 to 90 percent of everyone that applied. The reason we have grown to over 12000 students over the past 20 years is by raising standards. If we still had the same reputation now, we would probably still be getting the same number of application and be marred where we were. I think we have grown fast enough and steady growth is much better than rapid growth for the sake of growth. If we had 20k students, would that mean we would be a better university. I think quality of education is key and I don’t think we should sacrifice one iota of quality so that we can grow faster just so we can be bigger. Some years we have grown by over 5 percent and others by less but I think the steady growth we have had with a steady rise in quality is the best way. This also makes our degrees worth more. Western has found what works for Western and that is exactly what we are doing and we are growing. I think folks have forgotten where we were 20 or 25 years ago and there are still a lot of folks out there that do not know how good academically that Western is now and still have the old view of Western. We need to stay the course and slowly improve standards and growth will continue to happen as it has. As far as ECU goes, the legislature is the main reason that ECU grew and not quality. The legislature gave ECU many new majors and tons of money because the eastern part of NC has a lot more political clout than the Western part. We will never ever get the massive political support that ECU has enjoyed. FLCAT, I will say on thing, you are consistent. Consistently wrong. |
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Post by wcu72 on Sept 19, 2020 9:48:04 GMT -5
Opinions, just like butt holes, everybody's got one. You are not lowering standards, just just by increasing the freshman class by a reasonable number. If you don't increase the numbers, you remain at the same number of students forever. HOW ELSE DO YOU GROW THE UNIVERSITY, except by increasing the size of the freshman class? Look how ASU has grown, NOW over 20k students. Less than 20 years ago, WCU and ASU were almost the same size. They are ranked #3 by US News college ranking of public schools in the south, while WCU comes in at #10. It can be done, someone just has to do it. www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-south/top-publicIt's folks like you, and the leadership of the university that have held back WCU's growth over the years, as well as athletics at WCU. It's way past time for a NEW way of thinking to take over at Western Carolina. Now you are making up your own facts. You are allowed your own opinions, but not your own facts. Just look at the academic reputation of UNCP and ESU, the two other NC Promise schools. Both have the hightest rate of growth in the last two years. Both due to NC Promise. The only reason WCU did not have a high rate of growth, is due to the numbers they allowed in the freshmen class. Both UNCP & ESU had declining enrollments prior to NC Promise. |
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Post by FLCATAMOUNT on Sept 19, 2020 11:20:35 GMT -5
The only reason we have grown at all is by increasing academic and admission standards. That is a fact and not an opinion. Now you are making up your own facts. You are allowed your own opinions, but not your own facts. Just look at the academic reputation of UNCP and ESU, the two other NC Promise schools. Both have the hightest rate of growth in the last two years. Both due to NC Promise. The only reason WCU did not have a high rate of growth, is due to the numbers they allowed in the freshmen class. Both UNCP & ESU had declining enrollments prior to NC Promise. It is simple. There is a cut off of the amount of students that all universities use when it comes to accepting students each year which is determined by each university. So each university decides what the minimum grades and test scores they will accept for admission each year and of the 18000 or so applications that Western accepts, they have a minimum test score/grade combination they will accept. If you lower the standard and the test/score/grade you will accept, you can increase the growth rate in the short run because you only have the people in the pool that applied. Eventually though because you let in the ill prepared students, your enrollment is not sustainable. We have grown over the past 20 years by tightening admission and academic requirements plain and simple. What is your targeted growth rate? How many under prepared students do we need to let in to meet your desired growth rate? I think our growth rate is just fine and I am so glad that Bardo and Belcher came along when they did, or we would still have stagnant growth and a poor reputation. And yes what I stated is not an opinion but a fact supported by our growth while increasing academic standards. |
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Post by FLCATAMOUNT on Sept 19, 2020 11:25:35 GMT -5
I appreciate your view but we tried it your way up until the mid 90s and we ended up with a university with a bad reputation academically where we accepted 85 to 90 percent of everyone that applied. The reason we have grown to over 12000 students over the past 20 years is by raising standards. If we still had the same reputation now, we would probably still be getting the same number of application and be marred where we were. I think we have grown fast enough and steady growth is much better than rapid growth for the sake of growth. If we had 20k students, would that mean we would be a better university. I think quality of education is key and I don’t think we should sacrifice one iota of quality so that we can grow faster just so we can be bigger. Some years we have grown by over 5 percent and others by less but I think the steady growth we have had with a steady rise in quality is the best way. This also makes our degrees worth more. Western has found what works for Western and that is exactly what we are doing and we are growing. I think folks have forgotten where we were 20 or 25 years ago and there are still a lot of folks out there that do not know how good academically that Western is now and still have the old view of Western. We need to stay the course and slowly improve standards and growth will continue to happen as it has. As far as ECU goes, the legislature is the main reason that ECU grew and not quality. The legislature gave ECU many new majors and tons of money because the eastern part of NC has a lot more political clout than the Western part. We will never ever get the massive political support that ECU has enjoyed. FLCAT, I will say on thing, you are consistent. Consistently wrong. Expert analysis. You are also consistent. Thanks for your well thought out argument. You should get a medal for participation. 🤣🤣🤣 |
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Post by wcu72 on Sept 19, 2020 11:27:03 GMT -5
Now you are making up your own facts. You are allowed your own opinions, but not your own facts. Just look at the academic reputation of UNCP and ESU, the two other NC Promise schools. Both have the hightest rate of growth in the last two years. Both due to NC Promise. The only reason WCU did not have a high rate of growth, is due to the numbers they allowed in the freshmen class. Both UNCP & ESU had declining enrollments prior to NC Promise. It is simple. There is a cut off of the amount of students that all universities use when it comes to accepting students each year which is determined by each university. So each university decides what the minimum grades and test scores they will accept for admission each year and of the 18000 or so applications that Western accepts, they have a minimum test score/grade combination they will accept. If you lower the standard and the test/score/grade you will accept, you can increase the growth rate in the short run because you only have the people in the pool that applied. Eventually though because you let in the ill prepared students, your enrollment is not sustainable. We have grown over the past 20 years by tightening admission and academic requirements plain and simple. What is your targeted growth rate? How many under prepared students do we need to let in to meet your desired growth rate? I think our growth rate is just fine and I am so glad that Bardo and Belcher came along when they did, or we would still have stagnant growth and a poor reputation. And yes what I stated is not an opinion but a fact supported by our growth while increasing academic standards. Give it a break. Just restating your opinions does not make them a facts. We can grow and increase academic standards at the same time. ASU had done it for the last 35 years. I guess they just hire better chancellors with more knowledge of how to grow rapidly and and increase academic standards, both at the same time. |
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Post by jim68 on Sept 20, 2020 16:10:36 GMT -5
I have always stated that WCU would slow walk increasing enrollment as long as they could get away with it. With the number of applications WCU receives and the low number of acceptance, WCU could have as large a freshman class as they want, I would like to see it increase a little faster. With all the new housing being built off-campus, I'm sure private industry would meet any demands for new housing. To increase funding for sports, you have to increase enrollment. This chart shows how sorry our past Administrations have been. Remember, when you have limited space, you don’t build low footprint dorms. WCU is the most backward thinking schools in the UNC System. |
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Post by mtncat1 on Sept 20, 2020 19:38:57 GMT -5
"I appreciate your view but we tried it your way up until the mid 90s and we ended up with a university with a bad reputation academically where we accepted 85 to 90 percent of everyone that applied."
My way? No, I didn't make an argument for one way or another. I simply said each institution has found their own path for growth in their own unique way. I also said I don't attempt to offer any solutions for WCU either. My point is WCU can't carbon copy another method from another institution and assume it will magically work the same way for us as it did them. It's just not that simple.
Jim68-Do we have limited space compared to ASU? ASU has doubled enrollment since the 90's and seems more land locked and limited in expansion acreage than WCU by far. I mean heck, across from HWY 107 we have hundreds of acres ready for use. On campus, it seems we have many more open expanses than what ASU had to work with, yet ASU found a way. I'm not real concerned about running out of room to expand the Cullowhee campus. We could easily expand into the back side of the old entrance with a little vision and effort.
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Post by wcu72 on Sept 20, 2020 20:00:31 GMT -5
Do we have limited space compared to ASU? ASU has doubled enrollment since the 90's and seems more land locked and limited in expansion acreage than WCU by far.
Actually, the WCU campus is just under 600 acres. Obviously, there is lots more land that could be purchased if needed, but right now 600 is more than enough. ASU has in excess of 1300 acres in their campus, so they still have plenty of room to grow. |
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