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Post by WesternFan on Jan 14, 2019 10:26:16 GMT -5
wcuecu2010, so tell me just one thing, what screen name do you use on your ECU message board?
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Post by jim64 on Jan 14, 2019 11:01:38 GMT -5
I can't believe that someone thinks Speir deserves a new contract if he ONLY WINS 5 GAMES. To me it's unthinkable 3 voters would give a new contract without even a winning season. This is the thought process that has gotten WCU to the PITIFUL situation football has been in for the last 40 years in Cullowhee. Please, whoever voted for the 5 wins, please explain why a man with a 3-5 winning record and two straight losing seasons deserves to be the head coach of Western Carolina football? If you just want to play football, this program should go non-scholarship and join the Pioneer Football League as we have no business in the SoCon if our intention is not to be competitive and win championships. In that case, Speir would be fine. That would be me who voted the 5 wins. Why, because Speir is building the foundation to build WCU into a winner for the long-term, not looking for the quick fix of coaches that are only using us as a stepping stone for something bigger. Considering what Speir had to get through when he took over, the first 2 years should not even count against him. So giving him those 2 years as a mulligan, He has had winning seasons in 2014, 2015, and 2017, losing seasons in 2016 and 2018. If you take away the 2012 and 2013 season he has done pretty good for a WCU head coach and to be honest he is about on par to Bob Waters since WCU entered the Division 1 phase, if you compare Speir's record from 2014-2018 and Water's record from 1977 to 1988 and with the exception of the 1 National Championship appearance (in which WCU did not win the conference), Waters and Speir's winning percentage are not that much off. I remember in the early 2000s all of the Appy fans were wanting Jerry Moore fired, especially remember my own brother and saying that the game had passed him back in 2004 and then the next year they go on and win 3 straight national championships and defeat Michigan. It took Jerry Moore how long? With Speir, the goal is just to be able to get to the playoffs and maybe a conference championship before we can think of more. Also, I don't want to us to go back to another Dennis Wagner or even Kent Briggs type of situation. When we let go of Bleil, so unless you are going to find a coach that will come in an make an immediate fix, it is too risky and "dumb" to let a coach go that is winning 5, 6 or 7 games with the history WCU has had. Even with a quick fix coach who would leave immediately, that might give us a year or two to be excited and then WCU would likely go back to mediocrity or sucking. I would rather build it slowly for consistent success. Now if we only win 1,2,3 or 4 games then yes, contract should not be renewed. 2010, I knew Bob Waters, I talked to Bob Waters many times, and I watched him Coach throughout his Coaching Career at WCU. My friend, Coach Speir is no Bob Waters. If you think that Football at WCU is grossly underfunded now, Coach Speir would not have won a single game from 77 to 88 during the last few years Bob Waters was the Coach. The school was much smaller & the sports revenue was almost non existent. Bob Waters had a brilliant offensive mind & was extremely innovative in his play calling. Coach Speir has shown me nothing on the Football Field that would justify anyone comparing him to Coach Waters.
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Post by rapidpulse on Jan 14, 2019 12:50:42 GMT -5
I also knew Bob Waters very well. He was one of the most respected offensive minds in college or pro football. Our current staff couldn't fill a thimble compared to Bob's offensive creativeness, and that's a compliment to Bob, not a diss to our coaches. That said, I don't think today's head coaches have to have that much of a focus on one aspect of the game. It's a different time, but I sure long for some of those exciting games the Cats played under Waters. For Speir's sake, hope he is applying much pressure to his staff in 2019.
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Post by wcuecu2010 on Jan 14, 2019 21:18:39 GMT -5
wcuecu2010, so tell me just one thing, what screen name do you use on your ECU message board? Fair enough.... catamountpirate
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Post by wcuecu2010 on Jan 15, 2019 5:34:59 GMT -5
Let me just say to all those who want Speir fired not renewed or whatever. First, hopefully we are all wanting the same thing and that is for WCU football (and well all the sports to be successful) but we differ on how to do it.
For me, no I do not think Speir warrants being fired and if he does win 5 games with the schedule, our funding issues, the lack of commitment over the years from the administration and the fact keeping Speir promotes possibility of improvement. I do not say or think we should renew if does not win a game or only wins 2, such as only beating N.Greenville and Gardner-Webb but I am trying to be realistic in that we likely at best be 6-6 or 7-5 next year and I hope better, but will we improve, what does our future look like before making such a drastic move.
Here is the thing, before Speir, we were just the laughing stock of college football, Division 1 FBS, FCS, II, II NAIA to be honest, heck I would not doubt some high schools would have beaten a Wagner or even later era Briggs led Catamount team. We have only had a season here and a season there of not really success but winning record since the days of Bob Waters and Speir is 3 of those in which he has done 3 of the last 5 years.
So what Speir has done as raised the level of expectations on himself and on the program (victim of his own success) should you say. Now by doing that Speir has brought us from horrible to mediocre. Now, I know some want more and so do I, but lets not pull the trigger to quick and go back to Dennis Wagner 2.0.
Also, a lot talk the late Chancellor Belcher not being much help to athletics and I will not dispute that too much but he did help improve the football program, he came in got rid of clueless AD Chip Smith and Wagner and both Eaton and Speir are a marked improvement and he did donate a million dollar to the athletic program. Now yes, more could have and should have been done.
So chances are with AD Eaton still our AD, he is not going to fire his coach that he hired especially with him admitting he has thrown Speir and the football program under the bus to finance the program. Eaton did not get rid of Moranda last year and never got rid of Hunter until Hunter stepped down so I seriously doubt Speir is in any trouble.
So before we ever fire Speir we need to make dang sure we are upgrading and not gambling and hoping for better. We need a chancellor who cares and wants athletics to succeed, they don't have to be like Chancellor Peacock but someone who understands that athletics need to be comparably funded with the conference. Then we need a commitment to pay the the new head coach more money and their staff to compete or the cycle will repeat and may even even worse. Second the chancellor would need to instill his/her own AD and if you get a new head coach, there better be a good plan in place or its going to spell misery.
Yes I will bring up ECU as a comparison for this, ECU's idiot former AD Compher fired Ruffin McNeil (just like he did Bleil here) a man who was at his alma mater, was planning to retire there and although did not win conference championships had winning seasons and the occasional losing season, they fire him and hire a clueless Scottie Montgomery who was clueless and the program is one of the worst in the FBS, it likely will take Mike Houston to fix it and once he does, he will leave for the ACC or SEC, just like he did with the Citadel and James Madison. Another example is look what UNCC did with firing Bobby Lutz, what success as the basketball program had since then??? Lutz was not perfect but got them into the occasional NCAA, NIT and would have been involved in CBI's or CIT had he been able to remained on those off years better than the crap product UNCC has on the basketball floor now.
So, Speir is like that, he is not perfect but he is a stable force to our program, and building a foundation, I think we will begin to see consistent success and more playoffs in the near future but if WCU ever moves in another direction it better have a great plan in place and not doing it blindly or because Catamount fans demand it because he is not meeting their individual expectations.
Only a low percentage of FCS teams make the playoffs (24 teams) if WCU was in the FBS we would have been to 3 bowls already under Speir. I have a solution lets just cancel the FCS and promote all FCS team to one Division 1 like basketball and create 50 more bowl games, then everyone would be happy that we made a postseason and if we won the Charmin Toilet Bowl we could hang the banner all over EJ Whitmire. At least making the FCS playoffs means more than winning a crap bowl.
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Post by WesternFan on Jan 15, 2019 11:36:23 GMT -5
Maybe you don't realize it, but attending 3 "crap" bowls over a 7 year period, is not a great record, and not one I'd want to hang my hat on. There are so many of those "crap" bowls, that almost every FBS team with 6 wins gets a bowl.
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Post by wcuecu2010 on Jan 15, 2019 12:22:21 GMT -5
Maybe you don't realize it, but attending 3 "crap" bowls over a 7 year period, is not a great record, and not one I'd want to hang my had on. There is so many of those "crap" bowls, that almost every FBS team with 6 wins gets a bowl. 3 crap bowls would be better than no bowls, having a winning record even with just 7 wins is better than constant 1,2 wins that we received under previous coaches. Honestly, Id rather have multiple 7 win seasons under a stable coach than 1; 10 win season with a coach who would leave us the next year and our next coach after be another Wagner 2.0. I want stability, patience and a low risk conservative approach to our football program, rather than a high risk aggressive approach that might fail. Even in basketball making or winning the CIT or CBI is better than WCU staying home. For instance if someone said I could pick 3 options for WCU basketball, option 1 Make the NCAA tournament just to lose in 1st round to say a Duke etc, 2. Make the NIT (not getting to host) and win 1 game only or 3: Win either the CIT or CBI title and getting a chance to host from time to time. Id choose 3 so we could have fun winning a championship of something.
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Post by WesternFan on Jan 15, 2019 12:36:52 GMT -5
Maybe you don't realize it, but attending 3 "crap" bowls over a 7 year period, is not a great record, and not one I'd want to hang my had on. There is so many of those "crap" bowls, that almost every FBS team with 6 wins gets a bowl. 3 crap bowls would be better than no bowls, having a winning record even with just 7 wins is better than constant 1,2 wins that we received under previous coaches. Honestly, Id rather have multiple 7 win seasons under a stable coach than 1; 10 win season with a coach who would leave us the next year and our next coach after be another Wagner 2.0. I want stability, patience and a low risk conservative approach to our football program, rather than a high risk aggressive approach that might fail. Even in basketball making or winning the CIT or CBI is better than WCU staying home. For instance if someone said I could pick 3 options for WCU basketball, option 1 Make the NCAA tournament just to lose in 1st round to say a Duke etc, 2. Make the NIT (not getting to host) and win 1 game only or 3: Win either the CIT or CBI title and getting a chance to host from time to time. Id choose 3 so we could have fun winning a championship of something. Your argument is like saying 3 wins is better than no wins. Of course, it is, but 3 wins is still a losing season. My point on the "crap" bowls which might have just went over you head is that all those G5 teams that attend those "crap" bowls, would have long ago fired their coach if he only went to 3 "crap" bowls in 7 or 8 years.
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Post by wcuecu2010 on Jan 15, 2019 13:58:17 GMT -5
3 crap bowls would be better than no bowls, having a winning record even with just 7 wins is better than constant 1,2 wins that we received under previous coaches. Honestly, Id rather have multiple 7 win seasons under a stable coach than 1; 10 win season with a coach who would leave us the next year and our next coach after be another Wagner 2.0. I want stability, patience and a low risk conservative approach to our football program, rather than a high risk aggressive approach that might fail. Even in basketball making or winning the CIT or CBI is better than WCU staying home. For instance if someone said I could pick 3 options for WCU basketball, option 1 Make the NCAA tournament just to lose in 1st round to say a Duke etc, 2. Make the NIT (not getting to host) and win 1 game only or 3: Win either the CIT or CBI title and getting a chance to host from time to time. Id choose 3 so we could have fun winning a championship of something. Your argument is like saying 3 wins is better than no wins. Of course, it is, but 3 wins is still a losing season. My point on the "crap" bowls which might have just went over you head is that all those G5 teams that attend those "crap" bowls, would have long ago fired their coach if he only went to 3 "crap" bowls in 7 or 8 years. No not all G5 schools that made 3 crap bowls in that time frame. Some teams with horrid records prior to a coach that started winning and having decent mediocre seasons and that coach would be loved and given a lifetime contract per se. Also, here is a P5 school for you. What about David Cutcliffe at Duke. He took over a horrid Duke program and has had some good seasons, and bad seasons and more mediocre seasons. Yet, they love him in Durham and happy making bowls with 6-6 records and even for a P5 program those bowls are often crappy. Point is Speir has taken us places we have not been consistently since Waters, Speir has become a victim of his own success. At least your upset he has not won the conference or made the playoffs yet that means expectations are higher than before he arrived. Lets see how the season pans out, if he wins 3 games or less I may think its time too with the talent he has now and experience but I want to be realistic and not have too much high expectations yet. We are not North Dakota St yet.
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Post by WesternFan on Jan 15, 2019 14:20:42 GMT -5
Your argument is like saying 3 wins is better than no wins. Of course, it is, but 3 wins is still a losing season. My point on the "crap" bowls which might have just went over you head is that all those G5 teams that attend those "crap" bowls, would have long ago fired their coach if he only went to 3 "crap" bowls in 7 or 8 years. No not all G5 schools that made 3 crap bowls in that time frame. Some teams with horrid records prior to a coach that started winning and having decent mediocre seasons and that coach would be loved and given a lifetime contract per se. Also, here is a P5 school for you. What about David Cutcliffe at Duke. He took over a horrid Duke program and has had some good seasons, and bad seasons and more mediocre seasons. Yet, they love him in Durham and happy making bowls with 6-6 records and even for a P5 program those bowls are often crappy. Point is Speir has taken us places we have not been consistently since Waters, Speir has become a victim of his own success. At least your upset he has not won the conference or made the playoffs yet that means expectations are higher than before he arrived. Lets see how the season pans out, if he wins 3 games or less I may think its time too with the talent he has now and experience but I want to be realistic and not have too much high expectations yet. We are not North Dakota St yet. I'm sorry, but most of your post makes no sense. However, I did understand you saying Speir has taken us places we have not been consistently since Waters. I beg to differ, a 3-7 or 3-8 winning season record is not consistently winning, it's consistently losing. So the one thing Speir has done consistently is loose, and we've consistently lost since Waters. It would be nice if you made some valid arguments, rather than just saying we need to keep Speir.
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